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Vial Contact Lenses A discussion of vial contact lenses such as CibaSoft SoftColors, CibaSoft Visitint, Cooper Clear DW, Cooper Clear FW, CSI DW - Locator Tint, CSI FW, CV43, CV43 FW, Illusions, Natural Touch Opaque, Silver 07, Softcon EW, Softmate B, Softmate II ...


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  #1  
Old 08-11-2011, 02:02 PM
suncoaster2 suncoaster2 is offline
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Default Vial contacts discontinued

Why are practically all vial type contacts being discontinued? These have been the very best lenses available--some of mine I wore for more than a year in perfect comfort. My guess is that manufacturers would rather sell you throw-aways good for only a week or two, to improve their profit picture. One list I saw at an on-line source listed 26 different lenses with all but three stamped "Discontinued".
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  #2  
Old 08-11-2011, 02:22 PM
321contacts 321contacts is offline
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Default Vial Lenses Discontinued

Quote:
Originally Posted by suncoaster2 View Post
Why are practically all vial type contacts being discontinued? These have been the very best lenses available--some of mine I wore for more than a year in perfect comfort. My guess is that manufacturers would rather sell you throw-aways good for only a week or two, to improve their profit picture. One list I saw at an on-line source listed 26 different lenses with all but three stamped "Discontinued".
I noticed the same thing on a contact lens website. "Discontinued" all the way down. Looking closer, it seems as though all of the brands that were discontinued were made by CIBA Vision. Perhaps you want to contact them for more information. You can call them their Patient Relations Department at: 1-800-875-3001.

If you prefer email, here's where you can find their contact form: http://www.cibavision.com/contact-us.shtml

If you contact them, will you let us know what they tell you?
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  #3  
Old 08-14-2011, 11:00 AM
suncoaster2 suncoaster2 is offline
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Thanks for the link.
Got a quick response asking me to sign up for*secure email. Did this and am still waiting for a reply to my query about discontinued vial lenses.
I have worn contacts for more than forty years--almost since they first became available. The hard lenses took a week or more to become comfortable, but the technology kept improving and gas permeable lenses were better yet. Until about 5 years ago, I never bothered getting new lenses until I lost one of the pair I was wearing and the idea of buying a set of throw-aways never entered my head.
Now, I have been forced in that direction and it seems to me the whole thrust of contact lens research has changed to development of lenses that become unwearable in as short a time as they can get away with.
Recently, I got an estimate for thin lens eyeglasses (which I need, since I am severely myopic). Quote was $1100. I can't afford that and throwing away even thirty dollars a pair contacts every two weeks or so is not much better.
I'll let you know what CIBA Vision has to say about vial contacts, but I have little hope that it will be more than a dance around the real truth of the matter; that they are simply setting us up to pay them more money for an inferior product.
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  #4  
Old 08-22-2011, 11:30 AM
suncoaster2 suncoaster2 is offline
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Default CIBA answers

So, after a repeat query to CIBA Vision, I got a reply. As expected, they offer not-enough-demand as the reason for discontinuing all of their CV contacts.
Naturally, this begs the question, why, suddenly, no demand for what, most customers maintain, were the best lenses available?
They also mention "new technology" as part of the explanation.
Personally, I'd be fascinated by an explanation outlining what this "new technology" is. What makes a lens that is comfortably wearable for more than year, not as good as one you are forced to throw away, unusable, in a day, a week, or a month?
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  #5  
Old 08-22-2011, 12:26 PM
K-9 K-9 is offline
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Default Alll That For One Lens

Quote:
Originally Posted by suncoaster2 View Post
So, after a repeat query to CIBA Vision, I got a reply. As expected, they offer not-enough-demand as the reason for discontinuing all of their CV contacts.
Naturally, this begs the question, why, suddenly, no demand for what, most customers maintain, were the best lenses available?
They also mention "new technology" as part of the explanation.
Personally, I'd be fascinated by an explanation outlining what this "new technology" is. What makes a lens that is comfortably wearable for more than year, not as good as one you are forced to throw away, unusable, in a day, a week, or a month?
Me, personally, I believe that it has to do with the price of vial lenses. They look at the prices and go "Fifty bucks?? For one lens? That's insane! I'm not paying a hundred dollars for one lousy pair of contact lenses!
Yeah, I know one pair can last for a year, but what if I lose one? Then I have to pay fifty bucks to buy a replacement. I'll just buy the cheap daily lenses."

What do the rest of you think? Am I right, or totally off base?
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  #6  
Old 08-22-2011, 01:21 PM
suncoaster2 suncoaster2 is offline
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Off Base.
"Cheap daily lenses" aren't cheap. The last CV lenses I bought were Cooper Clear. With proper care, I wore these for up to two years before replacement and they cost me 44.50 each. They've now been discontinued and the cheapest throw-aways I can find are "splash" two-weeks replacements: $15.00 for six lenses--thirty backs for six pairs.
This amounts to $120.00 per year or $240.00 for the two years I was able to get out of Clearly Contacts CV lenses for $88.00, or $132.00 for three if, as you say, I lost one.
I've tried stretching the wear time for the "splash" lenses and can't get more than a month from them if I accept some discomfort for the last two weeks, plus blurry vision.
Moreover, most disposables, whatever the wear time, cost more than $15.00 for a six-pack. All I'm saying is that I believe contact lens research is no longer directed at increased wear time and an upgrading of the product, but instead aim at better profit margin for manufacturers. This is not so bad, when you consider what we owe the people who developed this marvelous invention in the first place. My prescription runs to -9 and the difference between contact lens correction versus conventional eyeglass correction is enormous. I just wish they'd leave us the option of buying the best the industry can produce instead of forcing us to purchase the most profitable they can devise while trying to convince us that they have our best interests at heart.
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  #7  
Old 08-22-2011, 01:40 PM
ThaMaster ThaMaster is offline
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Default They're Doing Their Best

Quote:
Originally Posted by suncoaster2 View Post
Off Base.
"Cheap daily lenses" aren't cheap. The last CV lenses I bought were Cooper Clear. With proper care, I wore these for up to two years before replacement and they cost me 44.50 each. They've now been discontinued and the cheapest throw-aways I can find are "splash" two-weeks replacements: $15.00 for six lenses--thirty backs for six pairs.
This amounts to $120.00 per year or $240.00 for the two years I was able to get out of Clearly Contacts CV lenses for $88.00, or $132.00 for three if, as you say, I lost one.
I've tried stretching the wear time for the "splash" lenses and can't get more than a month from them if I accept some discomfort for the last two weeks, plus blurry vision.
Moreover, most disposables, whatever the wear time, cost more than $15.00 for a six-pack. All I'm saying is that I believe contact lens research is no longer directed at increased wear time and an upgrading of the product, but instead aim at better profit margin for manufacturers. This is not so bad, when you consider what we owe the people who developed this marvelous invention in the first place. My prescription runs to -9 and the difference between contact lens correction versus conventional eyeglass correction is enormous. I just wish they'd leave us the option of buying the best the industry can produce instead of forcing us to purchase the most profitable they can devise while trying to convince us that they have our best interests at heart.
Hi there suncoaster2.

I'm going to trust you on the math, because I was never good with numbers. However, I'm not sure about your statement that "contact lens research is no longer directed at increased wear time and an upgrading of the product, but instead aim at better profit margin for manufacturers." That's a rather cynical view, isn't it? What if the contact lens manufactures have done all they can right now to make contact lenses last longer? Maybe there's a breakthrough on the horizon, but for right now, if we're not talking about vial lenses, then the best they can do is lenses that last a month?
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  #8  
Old 08-22-2011, 02:24 PM
suncoaster2 suncoaster2 is offline
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Well, in fact I thought we were talking about vial contacts. My point is that CV lenses, such as Cooper Clear DW, are far superior to non-vial limited wear lenses, yet the manufacturers--virtually all of the manufacturers--have discontinued their manufacture. They offer no explanation as to why, except that--they say--not enough demand. Does this mean we have stopped buying them, or does it merely confirm the fact that they are extremely long lasting?
I think the latter and don't think it's cynical to say so, absent any other explanation. Long lasting contacts aren't on the horizon, unless you mean the horizon behind us. My whole point is that we can no longer buy the best--only the best available; the best have been discontinued.
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  #9  
Old 08-22-2011, 03:10 PM
Scienceguy Scienceguy is offline
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Default Where Have the CV Lenses Gone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by suncoaster2 View Post
Well, in fact I thought we were talking about vial contacts. My point is that CV lenses, such as Cooper Clear DW, are far superior to non-vial limited wear lenses, yet the manufacturers--virtually all of the manufacturers--have discontinued their manufacture. They offer no explanation as to why, except that--they say--not enough demand. Does this mean we have stopped buying them, or does it merely confirm the fact that they are extremely long lasting?
I think the latter and don't think it's cynical to say so, absent any other explanation. Long lasting contacts aren't on the horizon, unless you mean the horizon behind us. My whole point is that we can no longer buy the best--only the best available; the best have been discontinued.
Sorry. What are "CV" lenses again?

"Not enough demand" sounds like an explanation to me. That sounds like not enough people are buying them. Since you need a prescription for contact lenses, that would then mean that doctors aren't prescribing them as much. Why that is, I don't know, but I'm guessing that other types of lenses are seen by eye doctors as better for their patients.
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  #10  
Old 08-22-2011, 04:25 PM
suncoaster2 suncoaster2 is offline
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CV lenses are vial type lenses; they come one lens to a vial.
Contact lenses do, indeed, require a prescription. The prescription describes parameters of the lens--power, curvature, etc.--but not the manufacturer of the lens, specifically. There may be many different lenses that conform to your prescription. Optometrists get free samples from the manufacturers and you may get the chance to try different ones selected from what he/she has on hand. There will not be many (read none) vial-type lenses around as free samples.
Buying lenses online allows those of us concerned with how much our eye care costs us the chance to save on cost by purchasing long lasting (usually, this means CV) lenses. The fact that there have, up until recently, been a large variety of long lasting, vial type lenses on the market makes me suspicious of the reason for most of them, suddenly, becoming discontinued and for the rest to be an endangered species. And, I have read many contact users on this and other forums bemoaning the fact that they can no longer buy their favorite vial type contact lens.
The lens you end up with is usually a combination of what your eye care professional recommends and what you decide is most comfortable for you. You may try many different ones before you find the lens that is right for you, both cost and comfort-wise.
"Not enough demand" sounds more like an easy excuse to me than the real reason for all of them to suddenly become discontinued. CIBA Vision appears on both Twitter and Facebook. I have asked this question on both venues and have yet to see an expanded reply on either.
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  #11  
Old 08-22-2011, 04:31 PM
VAB VAB is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suncoaster2 View Post
CIBA Vision appears on both Twitter and Facebook. I have asked this question on both venues and have yet to see an expanded reply on either.
Keep us posted on your investigation, suncoaster2. It will be interesting to see what you find out.
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  #12  
Old 08-24-2011, 09:55 AM
lurker2010 lurker2010 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scienceguy View Post
Sorry. What are "CV" lenses again?

"Not enough demand" sounds like an explanation to me. That sounds like not enough people are buying them. Since you need a prescription for contact lenses, that would then mean that doctors aren't prescribing them as much. Why that is, I don't know, but I'm guessing that other types of lenses are seen by eye doctors as better for their patients.
I suspect relatively few new contact wearers are being prescribed vial lenses. Some vial lens patients have moved to planned replacement lenses. Others may no longer be wearing contacts.

I think the explanation is simple. Lens mfg have decided to drop products which are made to order.
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  #13  
Old 08-24-2011, 10:40 AM
Tonythetiger Tonythetiger is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suncoaster2 View Post
CV lenses are vial type lenses; they come one lens to a vial.
Contact lenses do, indeed, require a prescription. The prescription describes parameters of the lens--power, curvature, etc.--but not the manufacturer of the lens, specifically. There may be many different lenses that conform to your prescription. Optometrists get free samples from the manufacturers and you may get the chance to try different ones selected from what he/she has on hand. There will not be many (read none) vial-type lenses around as free samples.
Buying lenses online allows those of us concerned with how much our eye care costs us the chance to save on cost by purchasing long lasting (usually, this means CV) lenses. The fact that there have, up until recently, been a large variety of long lasting, vial type lenses on the market makes me suspicious of the reason for most of them, suddenly, becoming discontinued and for the rest to be an endangered species. And, I have read many contact users on this and other forums bemoaning the fact that they can no longer buy their favorite vial type contact lens.
The lens you end up with is usually a combination of what your eye care professional recommends and what you decide is most comfortable for you. You may try many different ones before you find the lens that is right for you, both cost and comfort-wise.
"Not enough demand" sounds more like an easy excuse to me than the real reason for all of them to suddenly become discontinued. CIBA Vision appears on both Twitter and Facebook. I have asked this question on both venues and have yet to see an expanded reply on either.
I looked up "CV contact lenses" in Google and it came up with CooperVision. CooperVision lenses do come in a vial, and that explains the presence of the letter "c."
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  #14  
Old 08-24-2011, 11:27 AM
suncoaster2 suncoaster2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lurker2010 View Post
I suspect relatively few new contact wearers are being prescribed vial lenses. Some vial lens patients have moved to planned replacement lenses. Others may no longer be wearing contacts.

I think the explanation is simple. Lens mfg have decided to drop products which are made to order.
Well, vial lenses aren't all made to order, though the ones designed to correct astigmatism are. As far as I know, astigmatism correction requires a made-to-order lens. All of the discontinued vial lenses were formerly available to anyone with a simple prescription deliniating the lens parameters. No need for the prescription to specify a particular lens, vial-type or otherwise.
My own optometrist suggested several different lenses, none of which were anywhere near as good as the Cooper Clear DW lenses I was wearing. I tried several from samples she had, but decided to stick with what I had, until I lose one or they become unwearable. They are currently almost two years old. I bought them online.
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  #15  
Old 08-24-2011, 11:36 AM
Tonythetiger Tonythetiger is offline
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Default Contact Lens Parameters

Quote:
Originally Posted by suncoaster2 View Post
Well, vial lenses aren't all made to order, though the ones designed to correct astigmatism are. As far as I know, astigmatism correction requires a made-to-order lens. All of the discontinued vial lenses were formerly available to anyone with a simple prescription deliniating the lens parameters. No need for the prescription to specify a particular lens, vial-type or otherwise.
My own optometrist suggested several different lenses, none of which were anywhere near as good as the Cooper Clear DW lenses I was wearing. I tried several from samples she had, but decided to stick with what I had, until I lose one or they become unwearable. They are currently almost two years old. I bought them online.
I went to Lens.com and checked out their selection. Randomly I chose a vial lens called "Softcon EW" and they only come in three base curves, two diameters, and the available powers ranged from -8 to +9.5. So they're not made to order.

Contact lenses made to correct astigmatism are called "toric" and Optima Toric lenses are available in three base curves, one diameter and -9 to +6 power.

I seem to remember a certain type of lens that has dozens of base curves and diameters, but I don't remember what type they were. Those would probably be the ones that are made to order.
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  #16  
Old 08-24-2011, 12:43 PM
suncoaster2 suncoaster2 is offline
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Thankyou for your reply re:contact lens parameters. I wish I had more expertise in the subject. I've done a lot of reading, but real knowledge in the matter is hard to come by. I would have thought that a forum such as this one would get at least some attention from professionals in the field, but either that isn't happening, or this particular thread doesn't elicit much interest amongst them.
Which is a shame, because a real professional shouldn't have much trouble explaining what is at the root of this problem. "No demand" doesn't do it for me and as a long time consumer of their products I resent being left in the dark.
What I'd really like to know, is what makes a lens that remains functional for more than a year, inferior to a daily, weekly or monthly replaceable? If there's no demand for the long wear product, why not?
Don't blame me if I suspect their motives have more than my eye health at the root of discontinuing all these excellent lenses.
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  #17  
Old 08-30-2011, 01:32 PM
VAB VAB is offline
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Default Tell Your Doctor

Quote:
Originally Posted by suncoaster2 View Post
Thankyou for your reply re:contact lens parameters. I wish I had more expertise in the subject. I've done a lot of reading, but real knowledge in the matter is hard to come by. I would have thought that a forum such as this one would get at least some attention from professionals in the field, but either that isn't happening, or this particular thread doesn't elicit much interest amongst them.
Which is a shame, because a real professional shouldn't have much trouble explaining what is at the root of this problem.
You know, you're right. We should have more eye care professionals on this board. Perhaps you can contact your own eye doctor and tell him or her about Lens 101. If lots of people do this, then we can have all kinds of professionals on board. Good idea, suncoaster2.
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  #18  
Old 02-19-2012, 10:27 PM
Lensesagain Lensesagain is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suncoaster2 View Post
Off Base.
"Cheap daily lenses" aren't cheap. The last CV lenses I bought were Cooper Clear. With proper care, I wore these for up to two years before replacement and they cost me 44.50 each. They've now been discontinued and the cheapest throw-aways I can find are "splash" two-weeks replacements: $15.00 for six lenses--thirty backs for six pairs.
This amounts to $120.00 per year or $240.00 for the two years I was able to get out of Clearly Contacts CV lenses for $88.00, or $132.00 for three if, as you say, I lost one.
I've tried stretching the wear time for the "splash" lenses and can't get more than a month from them if I accept some discomfort for the last two weeks, plus blurry vision.
Moreover, most disposables, whatever the wear time, cost more than $15.00 for a six-pack. All I'm saying is that I believe contact lens research is no longer directed at increased wear time and an upgrading of the product, but instead aim at better profit margin for manufacturers. This is not so bad, when you consider what we owe the people who developed this marvelous invention in the first place. My prescription runs to -9 and the difference between contact lens correction versus conventional eyeglass correction is enormous. I just wish they'd leave us the option of buying the best the industry can produce instead of forcing us to purchase the most profitable they can devise while trying to convince us that they have our best interests at heart.
I could not agree more!

Why take away the best lenses ever made ie the most durable and comfortable! It is purely down to greed!
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  #19  
Old 02-20-2012, 12:12 PM
Type40 Type40 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suncoaster2 View Post
I just wish they'd leave us the option of buying the best the industry can produce instead of forcing us to purchase the most profitable they can devise while trying to convince us that they have our best interests at heart.
"Best" is a very subjective concept. It depends on the person. Some people like to wear lenses for a long time before changing them, while others want to be able to put in a fresh new pair of lenses every morning. Then there are a lot of people in between. Which brand of contact lenses is the best? The answer is "it depends on who you ask."
Unlike the vast majority of things you can buy, it's not up to the advertisers to tell you what kind contact lenses to wear, it's up to your doctor. If he or she thinks that you would be better off wearing vial lenses, then you should get those. The companies that sell monthly and daily lenses can tell you all day about how their lenses are the best, but if your doctor hasn't given you a prescription for them, no sale. In the end, they have to tell you at the end of the commercial to "ask your doctor."
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Old 02-20-2012, 12:42 PM
Lensesagain Lensesagain is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Type40 View Post
"Best" is a very subjective concept. It depends on the person. Some people like to wear lenses for a long time before changing them, while others want to be able to put in a fresh new pair of lenses every morning. Then there are a lot of people in between. Which brand of contact lenses is the best? The answer is "it depends on who you ask."
Unlike the vast majority of things you can buy, it's not up to the advertisers to tell you what kind contact lenses to wear, it's up to your doctor. If he or she thinks that you would be better off wearing vial lenses, then you should get those. The companies that sell monthly and daily lenses can tell you all day about how their lenses are the best, but if your doctor hasn't given you a prescription for them, no sale. In the end, they have to tell you at the end of the commercial to "ask your doctor."
A bit of careful research, particularly concerning newer, non-vial lens materials, e.g. Silicon Hydeogel and concerning the so-called business case to alter lens materials and the subsequent impact upon adverse events, i.e. Infection rates, etc., is more than sufficient, to demonstrate, that this view a few of us have stated, is not in fact merely a subjective view, held by vial lens users and others, but indeed, a very objective view, based on definitive parameters and scientifically damning data.

On your other point, lenses can be purchased without prescription verification in many countries, i.e. the dispensing company is not legally obliged to verify your order or prescription with your optician/doctor, so you can purchase whichever lenses you wish to, prescribed or not.

Research on both points is useful and interesting, for those inclined towards it.
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  #21  
Old 02-20-2012, 03:47 PM
Bonkers Bonkers is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lensesagain View Post
A bit of careful research, particularly concerning newer, non-vial lens materials, e.g. Silicon Hydeogel and concerning the so-called business case to alter lens materials and the subsequent impact upon adverse events, i.e. Infection rates, etc., is more than sufficient, to demonstrate, that this view a few of us have stated, is not in fact merely a subjective view, held by vial lens users and others, but indeed, a very objective view, based on definitive parameters and scientifically damning data.

On your other point, lenses can be purchased without prescription verification in many countries, i.e. the dispensing company is not legally obliged to verify your order or prescription with your optician/doctor, so you can purchase whichever lenses you wish to, prescribed or not.

Research on both points is useful and interesting, for those inclined towards it.
Thanks for giving us a balanced view, Lensesagain. Don't let it be said that Lens.com is biased. They are sponsored by a contact lens company, but they also have a section for glasses, too. It's not what you would call a "well-worn path", but it's there. Wear it down a little more.
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  #22  
Old 02-20-2012, 04:35 PM
sylvia sylvia is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Type40 View Post
"Best" is a very subjective concept. It depends on the person. Some people like to wear lenses for a long time before changing them, while others want to be able to put in a fresh new pair of lenses every morning. Then there are a lot of people in between. Which brand of contact lenses is the best? The answer is "it depends on who you ask."
Unlike the vast majority of things you can buy, it's not up to the advertisers to tell you what kind contact lenses to wear, it's up to your doctor. If he or she thinks that you would be better off wearing vial lenses, then you should get those. The companies that sell monthly and daily lenses can tell you all day about how their lenses are the best, but if your doctor hasn't given you a prescription for them, no sale. In the end, they have to tell you at the end of the commercial to "ask your doctor."
that's not necessarily true--most people tell their doctor what type of lens they are looking for--it would be odd or him to refuse to write a prescription for annuals if it was requested of him--he might strongly advise against it if they had a history of eye infections or something but in general you make the call of what types and brands of lenses you want

I've been wearing contacts for 16 years and have NEVER had an optometrist tell ME what lenses I'm going to be wearing--they just tell me the power and BC I require, and what options are out there for me to choose from
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  #23  
Old 02-20-2012, 05:23 PM
BusDriver BusDriver is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sylvia View Post
that's not necessarily true--most people tell their doctor what type of lens they are looking for--it would be odd or him to refuse to write a prescription for annuals if it was requested of him--he might strongly advise against it if they had a history of eye infections or something but in general you make the call of what types and brands of lenses you want

I've been wearing contacts for 16 years and have NEVER had an optometrist tell ME what lenses I'm going to be wearing--they just tell me the power and BC I require, and what options are out there for me to choose from
Well no, that's not true in every case, obviously.
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  #24  
Old 02-21-2012, 09:08 AM
sylvia sylvia is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BusDriver View Post
Well no, that's not true in every case, obviously.
I would say it is true in most cases


Most patients WANT disposables--if they requested annuals, the optometrist would probably find a suitable brand for them unless they had some sort of medical problem preventing them from wearing them
That is not the case with most people
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  #25  
Old 02-21-2012, 11:58 AM
HorseLuvr HorseLuvr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sylvia View Post
I would say it is true in most cases


Most patients WANT disposables--if they requested annuals, the optometrist would probably find a suitable brand for them unless they had some sort of medical problem preventing them from wearing them
That is not the case with most people
I agree, sylvia.
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  #26  
Old 02-21-2012, 05:03 PM
Lensesagain Lensesagain is offline
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Most, if not all, new lens wearers are not actually informed that annuals exist, nor are they aware lenses can last a year, due to the newer "throwaway" disposable culture and mass produced direction the industry has gone in.

If the correct pros and cons of both were put to new users, the results could be very surprising.

Studies show unfavourable infection rates with SiHy disposables over yearly lenses. That is hard evidence of a need for informed choice/consent, which cannot be achieved when the new lens wearer is not properly informed of the facts - the material facts, which indeed may well alter or influence heavily, their final decision. In fact, if safety/eye health is their driving factor in the decision making process, above all else, then annual lenses win, hands down, every time.

Don't believe the industry hype about disposable lenses - do your own research and become an informed consumer. Even better, become a subject matter expert - then the realities will become apparent - from the initially flawed business case, to the eventual unfulfilled envisaged benefits realisation - in time, one of the biggest industry scandals will become transparent and the plethora of rolling trains gathering the speed of effective challenge are making expedient progress on their long but crucial journey.

Evidence based conclusions can only be drawn by doing the hard work of relentless researching - everything else is anecdotal/conjecture, etc, etc.
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  #27  
Old 02-22-2012, 03:35 PM
lurker2010 lurker2010 is offline
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Sorry. Your post sounds like it makes sense but not really.

Annual (vial) lenses have virtually disappeared from the market. No reason for an ECP to discuss them since they no longer exist. The market has gone from annual lenses to quarterly, 14 day and finally daily disposable. The correct con information indicates the majority of lens wearers weren't following proper lens care routines. It further patients who follow the instructions can't get a year of use out of vial lenses.

The pro is patients wearing lenses marketed for daily disposable use tend to follow instructions. The pro is lens intended for frequent replacement can be made with a higher water content then lenses intended to be used for longer periods. The con is price.

A lot of evidence suggests RGP lenses offer longer life and superior vision to any soft lens.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Lensesagain View Post
Most, if not all, new lens wearers are not actually informed that annuals exist, nor are they aware lenses can last a year, due to the newer "throwaway" disposable culture and mass produced direction the industry has gone in.

If the correct pros and cons of both were put to new users, the results could be very surprising.

Studies show unfavourable infection rates with SiHy disposables over yearly lenses. That is hard evidence of a need for informed choice/consent, which cannot be achieved when the new lens wearer is not properly informed of the facts - the material facts, which indeed may well alter or influence heavily, their final decision. In fact, if safety/eye health is their driving factor in the decision making process, above all else, then annual lenses win, hands down, every time.

Don't believe the industry hype about disposable lenses - do your own research and become an informed consumer. Even better, become a subject matter expert - then the realities will become apparent - from the initially flawed business case, to the eventual unfulfilled envisaged benefits realisation - in time, one of the biggest industry scandals will become transparent and the plethora of rolling trains gathering the speed of effective challenge are making expedient progress on their long but crucial journey.

Evidence based conclusions can only be drawn by doing the hard work of relentless researching - everything else is anecdotal/conjecture, etc, etc.
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  #28  
Old 02-22-2012, 06:27 PM
Lensesagain Lensesagain is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lurker2010 View Post
Annual (vial) lenses have virtually disappeared from the market. No reason for an ECP to discuss them since they no longer exist. The market has gone from annual lenses to quarterly, 14 day and finally daily disposable. The correct con information indicates the majority of lens wearers weren't following proper lens care routines.

A lot of evidence suggests RGP lenses offer longer life and superior vision to any soft lens.
Vial lenses still exist - I was offered a prescription for them yesterday. They suit the requirements of certain people, i.e. Unusual/extreme prescriptions, whom cannot buy disposable lenses in their prescription. They are not guaranteed RATED for a year, but *up to* a year and even if they are still good at a year, replacement is recommended.

Secondly, "the majority of lens wearers weren't following proper routines?" - What majority? Where? Studies? Substantiation?

Even if that were true, why then, has the infection rate INCREASED with disposables? Source - Opthalmoogy Journals, amongst numerous others.

Many users, whether vial OR disposable, follow the rules to the letter. Many do not. Compliance does not guarantee no infection ever, just as non-compliance doesn't guarantee definite occurrence of infections will happen.

Disposable lenses are not the panacea to adverse events nor removing non-compliance - patients still overwear them, squeeze extra use out of them, are non-compliant with cleaning, usage intervals, try to prolong dailies/monthly/whatever, buy from unverified sources, use expired packs, solutions etc, sleep in dailies/monthlies, re-use too much, etc., need I go on. Also, with Extended wear - poor maintenance, over wear, etc is common.

Overwear, sleeping in lenses and poor cleaning regime are high risk factors for compromised eye health and disposable lenses have not removed nor decreased infection nor adverse events. In fact, Silicon Hydrogel disposables have an exceedingly unfavourable HIGHER record on infection rate (than vial lenses) and on patient compliance AND tolerance/allergy/dry eye/poor experience in use issues. This is documented in the Journals and many studies and user data reports.

One risk factor seems to turn up in almost every study completed on contact lens-related keratitis...sleeping in contact lenses. The single, largest risk factor for permanent vision loss is wearing lenses overnight. Your risk for developing infection is five times higher if you sleep in contact lenses. Other stated risk factors for developing serious eye infections include smoking, purchasing lenses via the internet, low socio-economic status, improper cleaning, extended wearing times, and young age. The UK study found that risks varied significantly depending on the brand of contact lens. In this study, researchers looked at whether single use, daily disposable contact lenses have a lower infection rate than two week or monthly disposable lenses. Interestingly, daily disposable lens wearers had a 1.5 times higher risk of developing keratitis. You see, with vials, no need to squeeze extra wear, most people get around a year or more, no need to eke another day/week/month out of them!

Silicone hydrogel is simply not in the same league as ordinary hydrogel - it is also a relatively unknown science and the whole selling point of "increased oxygen to the eye" has now been demolished as being of materially definitive benefit in infection prevention/reduction, although infection severity may be decreased. Indeed, Silicone Hydrogel is proving to be grossly unsuitable as a viable contact lens material (other than improved costs and mass production economies of scale). Interestingly, look at silicone breast implants too - deemed safe, mass produced and sold, now, BANG! The ticking time bomb just got deafeningly loud.

Vial lens and lens materials are superior and safer - no question. The science and data available corroborates this. Mass production of disposable lenses is capitalist profiteering, at the expense of patient's lens experience and eye health.

Let's examine one brand, chosen at random, and examine the feedback from users, especially users of vial lenses, switched onto silicon hydrogel. Do the same with ANY SiHy disposable and the same utter madness is occurring. It is like the tobacco industry all over again - and constitutes a scandal in the making.

http://www.straightfromthedoc.com/50226711/user_feedback_acuvue_oasysa_brand_contact_lenses.p hp

http://www.epinions.com/reviews/Acuvue_Oasys_with_Hydraclear_Plus?sb=1

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Support-a-class-action-lawsuit-against-acuvue-oasys/125814627451488

Damning evidence of an unacceptably high amount of adverse experiences - even when perfect compliance is expedited. Grossly unfit for purpose. Show me any brand of SiHy lenses and I'll show you an avalanche of sinister and disturbing material about adverse events, even with perfect compliance.

That ticking is growing louder...
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  #29  
Old 02-22-2012, 10:51 PM
lurker2010 lurker2010 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lensesagain View Post
Vial lenses still exist - I was offered a prescription for them yesterday. They suit the requirements of certain people, i.e. Unusual/extreme prescriptions, whom cannot buy disposable lenses in their prescription. They are not guaranteed RATED for a year, but *up to* a year and even if they are still good at a year, replacement is recommended.

...
I'm not going to waste my time responding to your post, providing links and studies.

I said:Annual (vial) lenses have virtually disappeared from the market

lens.com shows one regular vial lens available and 21 vial lenses as being discontinued.

Other vendors show a few more lenses. Lenses like the CSI DW are no longer made.

The fact that you were able to order an annual lens doesn't dispute my statement.

The rest of your comments are equally misleading.
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  #30  
Old 02-23-2012, 09:11 AM
sylvia sylvia is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lurker2010 View Post
I'm not going to waste my time responding to your post, providing links and studies.

I said:Annual (vial) lenses have virtually disappeared from the market

lens.com shows one regular vial lens available and 21 vial lenses as being discontinued.

Other vendors show a few more lenses. Lenses like the CSI DW are no longer made.

The fact that you were able to order an annual lens doesn't dispute my statement.

The rest of your comments are equally misleading.
Not true, there are still a few options available on sites like Vision Direct and Coastal Contacts

Anyone determined to wear them can find them on international sites as well, like Viallure

Yes many brands have been discontinued but it's not like it was an act of god or something---the companies made a strategic move to discontinue them, probably because there is MUCH more money to be made with disposables

I used to spend under a hundred bucks for annuals--now I spend at least 400 per year on daily disposables--I think that pretty much sums up the reason why annuals are being phased out

Also customers tend to prefer dailies because they're virtually fool proof. I have a very high prescription and wear my lenses for long hours so I like having a lens that lets in a lot of oxygen. It's also nice that I don't have to have a panic attack if I lose one. But if $ ever got tight I wouldn't really mind going back to annuals--if they're still around
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  #31  
Old 02-23-2012, 11:04 AM
lurker2010 lurker2010 is offline
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Originally Posted by sylvia View Post
Not true, there are still a few options available on sites like Vision Direct and Coastal Contacts

Anyone determined to wear them can find them on international sites as well, like Viallure
The vast majority of vial lenses, from major mfg, have been discontinued. The fact that there are a few still available from a couple of sites doesn't make my statement false.

I agree one reason is the mfg found they can make more money selling lenses then the can make selling solutions. Lenses designed for frequent replacement can be made with a higher water content. Another reason was the poor compliance by patients.
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  #32  
Old 02-23-2012, 03:46 PM
sylvia sylvia is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lurker2010 View Post
The vast majority of vial lenses, from major mfg, have been discontinued. The fact that there are a few still available from a couple of sites doesn't make my statement false.

I agree one reason is the mfg found they can make more money selling lenses then the can make selling solutions. Lenses designed for frequent replacement can be made with a higher water content. Another reason was the poor compliance by patients.
I'm just saying that while many have been discontinued, if a patient wants to wear annuals they can easily be procured

And given the poor quality of the disposable colored lenses on the annual market, I have no idea what they were thinking discontinuing the vial colored contact lenses like Durasoft, Illusions, and Natural Touch

And on the subject, why does Bausch and Lomb have a line of annual colored lenses that are available in other countries but not here?

Is it that there isn't much of a market for colored lenses in America?
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  #33  
Old 02-23-2012, 10:42 PM
lurker2010 lurker2010 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sylvia View Post
I'm just saying that while many have been discontinued, if a patient wants to wear annuals they can easily be procured
Virtually all the major brands have dropped vial lenses. The companies still marketing vial lenses, companies like Alden, sell lenses through eye doctors. Won't be cheap
Ciba got rid of all their made to order lenses. From their site.
Earlier this year CIBA VISION® placed a voluntary hold on our specialty line of soft contact lenses, while conducting a regulatory document review and revalidation of our specialty manufacturing processes. This action does not reflect on the established quality and safety performance of CIBA VISION® specialty lenses, nor is this the result of any increase in the frequency of or severity of adverse events.
This process has taken much longer than originally expected thereby creating uncertainty and difficulty for eye care practitioners and their patients. Knowing the tremendous uncertainty and difficulty this creates for you, your staff and your patients, CIBA VISION® has decided to discontinue the following brands with immediate effect:
And given the poor quality of the disposable colored lenses on the annual market, I have no idea what they were thinking discontinuing the vial colored contact lenses like Durasoft, Illusions, and Natural Touch

Quote:
And on the subject, why does Bausch and Lomb have a line of annual colored lenses that are available in other countries but not here?

Is it that there isn't much of a market for colored lenses in America?
US requires a script for all contacts, even novelty/colored lenses. That includes lenses with a plano (zero) parameter. Other countries, including Europe, let people buy those kinds of contacts without an eye exam or script.

I'll speculate that's the reason. Demand is greater in countries where a patient can buy a colored contact lens without having to see an eye doctor.
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  #34  
Old 02-24-2012, 12:52 AM
luvbostonxo2's luvbostonxo2's is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sylvia View Post
I'm just saying that while many have been discontinued, if a patient wants to wear annuals they can easily be procured

And given the poor quality of the disposable colored lenses on the annual market, I have no idea what they were thinking discontinuing the vial colored contact lenses like Durasoft, Illusions, and Natural Touch

And on the subject, why does Bausch and Lomb have a line of annual colored lenses that are available in other countries but not here?

Is it that there isn't much of a market for colored lenses in America?
yes and agreed marketing, research and development makes those decisions and unfortunately in north america growth in sales has been slow due to economics.

Because of this and company mergers, it has created a tougher market for these speciality lenses to move forward and it was not longer profiteable.

lack of profits + stale economy= lines of lenses to be discontinued because theyre not making money on them.

What irks me is the lack of foresight with what these companies DONT get!?!?!?

International web sites are more than welcome in selling North American buyers foreign lenses. Go figure!
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  #35  
Old 02-24-2012, 09:50 AM
SandiStix SandiStix is offline
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Default An Educational Thread

Thank you for the lively discussion, here. I learned a lot from reading this thread.
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  #36  
Old 02-28-2012, 09:20 AM
sylvia sylvia is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lurker2010 View Post
Virtually all the major brands have dropped vial lenses. The companies still marketing vial lenses, companies like Alden, sell lenses through eye doctors. Won't be cheap
Ciba got rid of all their made to order lenses. From their site.
Earlier this year CIBA VISION® placed a voluntary hold on our specialty line of soft contact lenses, while conducting a regulatory document review and revalidation of our specialty manufacturing processes. This action does not reflect on the established quality and safety performance of CIBA VISION® specialty lenses, nor is this the result of any increase in the frequency of or severity of adverse events.
This process has taken much longer than originally expected thereby creating uncertainty and difficulty for eye care practitioners and their patients. Knowing the tremendous uncertainty and difficulty this creates for you, your staff and your patients, CIBA VISION® has decided to discontinue the following brands with immediate effect:
And given the poor quality of the disposable colored lenses on the annual market, I have no idea what they were thinking discontinuing the vial colored contact lenses like Durasoft, Illusions, and Natural Touch



US requires a script for all contacts, even novelty/colored lenses. That includes lenses with a plano (zero) parameter. Other countries, including Europe, let people buy those kinds of contacts without an eye exam or script.

I'll speculate that's the reason. Demand is greater in countries where a patient can buy a colored contact lens without having to see an eye doctor.
I thought you were talking about vial lenses in general, not colored vial lenses--that's a different story!
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  #37  
Old 02-28-2012, 09:49 AM
hotpepperking hotpepperking is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lurker2010 View Post
Demand is greater in countries where a patient can buy a colored contact lens without having to see an eye doctor.
That makes a lot of sense, Lurker2010. I bet that is the reason that more people order colored contact lenses outside the US.
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  #38  
Old 02-28-2012, 11:16 AM
sylvia sylvia is offline
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Originally Posted by hotpepperking View Post
That makes a lot of sense, Lurker2010. I bet that is the reason that more people order colored contact lenses outside the US.
Idk about that, if Soloticas or Waicons were available in the US I would definitely have my doctor write me a prescription for them--just to make sure that they were the right fit for me

And many users of these colored lenses in other countries go to an eye doctor to know their prescription, that is how they know what power or BC to order

Maybe they don't go to get a new prescription for every single lens they buy, but they do need to go to figure out what power and BC they need
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  #39  
Old 02-28-2012, 05:38 PM
Guinness Guinness is offline
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Originally Posted by sylvia View Post
I've been wearing contacts for 16 years and have NEVER had an optometrist tell ME what lenses I'm going to be wearing--they just tell me the power and BC I require, and what options are out there for me to choose from
Not even in the beginning, 16 years ago? Did they tell you your parameters, suggest two or three brands and leave the final decision about what brand up to you?
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  #40  
Old 02-28-2012, 10:34 PM
luvbostonxo2's luvbostonxo2's is offline
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Originally Posted by Guinness View Post
Not even in the beginning, 16 years ago? Did they tell you your parameters, suggest two or three brands and leave the final decision about what brand up to you?
as an ecp i always inform the patient what brand i am prescribing and why......there's no need for a science lesson but informing the patient with a few features and benefits makes the patient better understand what lenses they are wearing.

SOme of my collegues don't do this...but as a specialist in contact lens fitting I feel its part of our ethical job to inform the patient about their lenses they are wearing.
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  #41  
Old 02-29-2012, 11:11 AM
sylvia sylvia is offline
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Originally Posted by Guinness View Post
Not even in the beginning, 16 years ago? Did they tell you your parameters, suggest two or three brands and leave the final decision about what brand up to you?
The optometrist gave me all of my choices and asked if I had a preference....this was many years ago so there weren't that many choices available for someone with my high prescription

Subsequent times, if I was interested in a particular brand, I would ask the eye doctor if they were available in my prescription--if they were, I would get a prescription for them, if they weren't, he would suggest an alternative

When I got a prescription for Focus Night and Day, it was because I asked my doctor for a prescription for them---the same when I switched to Acuvue Moist Dailies--HE didn't tell me that I would now be wearing daily disposables....

It's really not that hard of a concept to understand....
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  #42  
Old 03-09-2012, 05:02 PM
321contacts 321contacts is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sylvia View Post
The optometrist gave me all of my choices and asked if I had a preference....this was many years ago so there weren't that many choices available for someone with my high prescription

Subsequent times, if I was interested in a particular brand, I would ask the eye doctor if they were available in my prescription--if they were, I would get a prescription for them, if they weren't, he would suggest an alternative

When I got a prescription for Focus Night and Day, it was because I asked my doctor for a prescription for them---the same when I switched to Acuvue Moist Dailies--HE didn't tell me that I would now be wearing daily disposables....

It's really not that hard of a concept to understand....
Well, it might not be so simple if someone has never had to switch brands before. It's not proverbial "rocket science" but it helps to get some professional input on a decision like this.
It's also nice to have a forum like Lens 101 to get information from people who have experience.
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  #43  
Old 03-20-2012, 12:40 AM
luvbostonxo2's luvbostonxo2's is offline
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Originally Posted by suncoaster2 View Post
Why are practically all vial type contacts being discontinued? These have been the very best lenses available--some of mine I wore for more than a year in perfect comfort. My guess is that manufacturers would rather sell you throw-aways good for only a week or two, to improve their profit picture. One list I saw at an on-line source listed 26 different lenses with all but three stamped "Discontinued".
I've been doing alot of research and "looking in" into why so many companies have vial lenses or (annual lenses) as they are referred to.

Coopervision Hydrasoft and preference lenses are the only lenses that I know of that I prescribe that are 3 month disposables. Most other yearly lenses have been discontinued. I think this is due to economics, and as such have grown out of popularity.

Back in the 80's Cibavision soft colors came in 3 shade intensities for their enhancer colors. Now defunct. As far as I know ONLY Alden Optical has replacements lenses comparable to the now discontinued yearly lenses. It is the only company that offers these enhancer tints in three shade intensities and they offer lenses that can replace yearly lenses for those that need them.
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  #44  
Old 03-20-2012, 09:09 AM
dragongirl81 dragongirl81 is offline
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Default A Costly Habit

Quote:
Originally Posted by luvbostonxo2's View Post
I've been doing alot of research and "looking in" into why so many companies have vial lenses or (annual lenses) as they are referred to.

Coopervision Hydrasoft and preference lenses are the only lenses that I know of that I prescribe that are 3 month disposables. Most other yearly lenses have been discontinued. I think this is due to economics, and as such have grown out of popularity.
Have you yourself thought about giving up on vial lenses because they were becoming too expensive?
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  #45  
Old 03-20-2012, 04:39 PM
luvbostonxo2's luvbostonxo2's is offline
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Originally Posted by dragongirl81 View Post
Have you yourself thought about giving up on vial lenses because they were becoming too expensive?
well we ecp's don't have a choice as we're at the mercy of these vision companies as well as the general public.

There are patients that need custom parameters like a keratoconus cornea, high prescriptions, Toric powers and custom requests( enhancer tint with clear pupil) etc.
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  #46  
Old 03-21-2012, 09:19 AM
dragongirl81 dragongirl81 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luvbostonxo2's View Post
well we ecp's don't have a choice as we're at the mercy of these vision companies as well as the general public.

There are patients that need custom parameters like a keratoconus cornea, high prescriptions, Toric powers and custom requests( enhancer tint with clear pupil) etc.
What about wearing vial lenses? Do you wear them yourself? It's good that you still prescribe them for patients who request them.
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  #47  
Old 03-21-2012, 02:42 PM
sylvia sylvia is offline
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Originally Posted by dragongirl81 View Post
What about wearing vial lenses? Do you wear them yourself? It's good that you still prescribe them for patients who request them.
Wouldn't he kind of have to? Unless there was some medical reason not to?
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  #48  
Old 03-21-2012, 07:16 PM
luvbostonxo2's luvbostonxo2's is offline
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Originally Posted by dragongirl81 View Post
What about wearing vial lenses? Do you wear them yourself? It's good that you still prescribe them for patients who request them.
No I don't wear vial lenses but back in the day (80's) I use to wear Barnes and HInd Hydrocurve II and Coopervision Permaflex Naturals...so i was dissapppointed then when they were discontinued..

I wear Rgp lenses full time, and wear air optix aqua and tru eye one days when its allergy season and gym workouts. My rgp's are Boston Xo2"s ( hence my name login).

Yes I still do fit them but the availability of vial lenses are dwindling. I love the CV hydrosoft and preference 3 month lenses. I also prescribe Alden Optical lenses as my replacement preference for those patients that still request vial (yearly contacts) as ALden Optical is the only company I know of that can replicate the discontinued vial lenses.
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